@ ian cameron dromore
What parts of PN's advertising are a "work of fiction" ? You can report them to ASA yourself if you think they're telling fibs...
I know they're far from perfect, but some aspects are simply outside their control, especially when it comes to engineering.
For Greta - who says "non existing customer service.our business has been without internet for seven days now" (March 01, 2016)
1) as you are running a Business, are you using the Plus.Net Business service ? (The Business customer support is still 24x7, not the same team as do residential support and on a completely different number.)
2) if not using the Business service, then if you depend on the internet, had you never considered having a backup plan? I have a USB dongle for Three mobile, as well as one of their mains-powered USB to Wi-Fi routers (it has 2 ethernet ports so up to 5 devices including old PCs with no Wi-Fi could use it) Unfortunately, the cost of data has gone up quite a lot - it used to be possible to find people selling 3GB of data for a USB modem at around £10. Nowadays even on Ebay people are charging much more... it may cost £10 for 1 GB.
I also had a better backup with unlimited data on the Three "One Plan" via my mobile which I could power as a home router for a week or two in the case of complete loss of landline service.
Almost 18 months ago, I saw warnings that the unlimited data "One Plan" from Three (for which I was paying £15/month (2000 voice minutes, 5000 texts, 5000 3-to-3 minutes, unlimited data and unlimited tethering)...
My Primus landlinewith Plus.Net broadband (10/11 Mbps) connection was really important, as I work from home, and use the internet at least 15 hours a day one way and another (with several Android mobiles just checking different e-mail accounts). I would be unable to support clients without the internet.
Since the comments on HUKD said that Three were pulling the One Plan accounts and giving customers 5/6 weeks before the fee might go up to double (for lower allowances of data), I knew I'd need some other alternative.
I decided to get a second landline (installed for free, luckily) from Post Office Broadband (which is actually reselling TalkTalk, but my billing is done only with Post Office!) and by paying for line rental for a year, that worked out at just £10/month equivalent. Broadband was free for the first 6 months as a new customer and then £8 a month. I'm now in my second year. Like Plus.Net, the broadband component has an 18 month minimum. I'm quite happy with the service, though line rental is now costing me £16/month (because I didn't have the spare cash at the time for a year's line rental... though I may well go back to that for the next 12 months fairly soon).
Anyway, long story, but last year there were line faults on both lines (luckily at different times). In fact, three faults in total, each time causing me to lose voice calls and broadband.
The first was with the Post Office line, the second the Plus.Net/Primus line, the third with the Post Office line again. Sometimes one line was repaired and the very next day the other line died.
Partly this may be down to where I live (Merseyside, but no Virgin Media service in this small estate), with around 200-300 flats between my house and the cabinet, so sometimes a fault on someone else's line means an engineer might 'grab' an active line, or somehow get you disconnected. Another aspect is that there was aluminium cable not copper which had many more problems over the years.
However, my main point is that in EACH case it was taking A WEEK or more before I could have an engineer come to look. In one case a new engineer was sent who was not yet qualified to deal with cabling that goes underground, so he was really frustrated and angry (with the organising of engineers, not me) because it was a wasted visit and another engineer turned up after his normal shift to sort it out.
No compensation for the losses in service (whereas after 3 or 4 days, Openreach pays out £7.50 to the telecom firm... so in the case of the Post Office, it would be TalkTalk getting the money). However, because my business does depend on the 'net, I could still work. Greta, take note!
These are problems not with the ISP but the way Openreach has been working. There was an Ofcom report in 2013 which recommended changes because of the long delays and problems caused by a lack of engineers and I don't know if they've actually got the engineering numbers up, or whether the more knowledgeable, older ones are simply retiring faster than they can take new staff on.
Add to this the fact that many fibre installs are done by two firms of subcontractors, who then seem to be causing problems by the 'grabbing' of working pairs back to the exchange. The contractors are paid on number of installs, so rush them, while any problems they cause will hit Openreach engineers having an existing workload added to by these problems.
It would perhaps be better if Openreach did the installs and then there's less likelihood of 'faults' being caused in error or by rushing, and mean an install does not cause two callouts, so all customers would be dealt with faster.
Final note - Three has now 'pulled' my One Plan account and I left, going off to The People's Operator (which gives 10% to charity). The same £15/month does not give me unlimited data but 6GB, but does offer 'unlimited' minutes and texts.
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@ ian cameron dromore
Plusnet: I too regret plusnet. We had a bad line for standard broadband, so had to go for fibre, which was not an issue. We accepted to have an engineer around on the basis that if our system was at fault, we would pay a £50 charge. The engineer informed my wife that fibre was the only option. He also did not inform her that we would be charged. His feedback to plusnet was that our already filtered box was double filtered. Having sent pictures of our setup to plusnet, they are classing our phone extension socket, which was not fitted during the test, as a filter.
Two of the technical support team have confirmed that it is not a filter, but the powers that be have said others. This makes me question the technical capabilities of plusnet.
Lets face it, the most important things in Broadband is Price, Relability and Customer Service.
I had a number of issues with Plusnet 4 months ago when my plusnet router failed and I was told it was out of contract. (So I am paying for a service which is not fit for purpose). When I queried Plusnet about the router they offered a recontract at THE ORIGINAL 11 month old price, when I challenged this they offered me a recontract 80 POUNDS MORE than if I was a new customer. Talk about customer retention strategy. I ended up purchasing my own router which was far better than the rubbish provided by Plusnet. I found the technical web chat next to useless and eventually was always referred to the telephone number and a very long wait. I waited out my contract and had a web chat with plusnet who informed me that a 12, 18 or 24 month contract was availible, I rang plusnet and they informed me that they do not offer 12 month contracts. DOES ANYONE IN PLUSNET KNOW WHAT IS ACTUALLY GOING ON IN THE REAL WORLD AND NOT SOME MADE UP CUSTOMER SATISFACTION LIES THEY ARE MAKING UP.
In Summary :
1. Extremely Poor Customer Service
2. Very Long Wait on the Phone
3. Long 18 or 24 month contracts (others offering 12 month)
4. Disconnected Hardware Router contract and Service Contract
5. Useless web chat
6. Real attitude issues from them over the phone
7. Advertising should be reported as a work of fiction to ASA
Anyway the best deal for Anytime Phone, 38mb Unlimted Fibre as of 15th April 2016 is pence between Sky and BT.
Glad to be rid of them and Spoon Whittlers UNITE!
Not surprised at so many bad reviews, although agree with the old adage we complain more that congrat....I joined Plusnet a few years back and found the service excellent.....but since a problem find that service has deteriorated and my problem of over two weeks now has not been resolved either by phone or chat....last email claimed my problem should be resolved reset router...which I did but still NOT resolved....
Moved over from bt to plusnet needn't have bothered though they would be better but there just as bad as bt no single most of the time they need to get there act together and soon
Shockingly,worst internet provider with non existing customer service.our business has been without internet for seven days now,the problem is not fixed,no compensation offered,and no option of terminating the contract unless paying termination fee!
Never seen this in 15 years of business!
Seems the customer is always wrong with plusnet.
Awful customer service. Minimum of 40 minute wait every time I phoned and generally unhelpful / unapologetic for the difficulties I was experiencing. Similar experience for a good friend of mine, especially waiting so long for someone to actually answer the phone. Why they have such positive customer ratings, I do not know!
@RRees - I suspect it'd be a waste of money going to court. ASA is better, but what "false claims" have been made?
@Julian - it sounds like your line might have deteriorated over time. If that's the case, switching ISP will have no effect.
When I lived in N Wales, around 2010, the speed I was getting was regularly only 160 kbps (much below the original 500 kbps offered in 2000/2001) Also, I lost all voice and broadband for up to 5 days at a time.
After 6 months and having reported the line dead (via mobile broadband, which I also used for line tests), a young engineer turned up at 0830 on a Saturday, and was up his ladder because he saw the problem (perished insulation) before I reached the front door!
If there's a line problem, or crosstalk from other users near you, it may be no dufferent. Celebrate when you have a stable connection after a week or two...
I'm just a customer, not an employee, by the way.
Someone should take them to court over their false claims about service in their adverts
We joined Plsunet years ago. Then, it was market leader for customer satisfaction. No more! I can only assume the accountants insisted on increasing margins by cutting quality.
For some time our speeds dropped and recently to snails pace - a joke. When you -finally! - get through to their laughably named 'help' line, all they seem to do is 'raise a ticket' ie fill in a form, plus refer you to remas of webpages which explain its all very coomplicated and maybe its this and maybe its that and maybe is the other, never any hint of what they are actually going to DO about it other than 'monitor your line', theyve been doing this for weeks and no change. I'm reduced to using neighbours routers (having got their password and permission of course)! In despair I switched to Zen and its 8 days until they switch on and by God! we'll have a bottle of soemthing when that day comes!
DO NOT JOIN PLUSNET you'd be better off with carrier pigeons!
I Joined PlusNet over a year ago moving from BT thinking that they would "do me proud" and when my PlusNet Router packed up I was told that the router is under a 12 month contract and the service is for 18 months. I was given the option to buy an overpriced outdated router or re-contract.
After ringing PlusNet to obtain a price for re-contract they tried to simply renew the contract at a price that is 13 months old. When I highlighted this they put me through to Customer Options who tried to sell me a 24 months contract. Eventually got a price for their 18 month contract which is still MORE EXPENSIVE (£180) than a new customer quote on the their automatic website. When I mentioned that Sky is cheaper than their automatic website quote the PlusNet operative started speaking negatively and falsely about Sky which highlights how low these people really are.
The point is I thought PlusNet were different and that customer care and customer retention was a priority and I have to say THIS IS NOT THE CASE. They are very much like their parent company BT which is about the holy cash and nothing else.
Dreadful Customer Service
Odd mismatched contracts hardware and service
Unfair Contract pricing
Very Long wait to speak to staff
More expensive than Sky (Jan 2016 : Fibre 38mb and Anytime Phone)
I shifted to Plusnet becasue of the price and superior customer service. I quickly found that neither were true. Somehow, we never found out why, the deal I asked for was cancelled mid order. The service was slightky slower than Sky but with more outages. I let this go since it was early and I expected time to settle in.
The wrost was customer service with waits on hold of half an hour or forty five minutes. I left after two months to go back to Sky.
@ lorraine (late August)
Regarding the disconnection fee, yes, unfortunately that is a valid charge.
Ofcom forced a split of the Openreach charge (initially it was 50+VAT for setup, with no charge for disconnection) into two, one for connection, one for disconnection.
As the other person was moving then unless someone new was taking the ADSL service over, there would need to be a 'cease' of service and Openreach makes a charge, which ISPs just pass on to the customer.
Blame it on Ofcom - they should have forced Openreach to refund half the original fee to ISPs and the ISPs should have been forced to refund to the original customer (but after a couple of years, it may be awkward to trace some people if they move a lot because of the job / new jobs, etc).
I've been a customer for well over 10 years and still happy with them. More problems (as far as my experience) are caused by Openreach, not the ISP.
Internet went down for a week earlier this year (problem caused, and eventually fixed, by Openreach). In the same month, my second internet connection (TalkTalk but resold via The Post Office) went down twice, each time for a week or more, again caused by Openreach... Openreach are finally getting around to replacing 25-30 year old aluminium cabling. Problems are exacerbated by 3 blocks of flats on the route, adding hundreds of extra cables and more chance of an "in use" connection being stolen to "repair" a connection that has just failed.
Switched from Sky to Plusnet. Plusnet activated the service on 4 December but "forgot" to send the router (which I had to paid for upfront). Spent more than 4 hours in total trying to contact them. Customer service has not got a clue. They have been feeding me absolute lies, like on Sunday the router is in the post and should be with you by Tuesday (but it turns out the router was only put in the post Monday night). Since 4 December, no broadband service at all and no apology whatsoever from Plusnet. Of course, I am being charged for the non-existent service in the meantime. Absolute joke!
Despite having to pay a hefty sum to get out of my contract, I recently left Plusnet due to their appalling internet supply and lack of customer service.
I could go on for hours, but briefly: the internet would drop out almost daily (which doesn’t happen now that I’ve switched providers), sometimes for hours and despite them ‘looking into it’; their online troubleshooter more often than not displayed an error message; they got my address wrong multiple times; it took an average wait of 3 weeks for an answer if you asked a question via the online customer portal; my online account details did not list a contract end date; they refused to take responsibility when called out on all these issues and didn’t even offer an early termination discount in light of all the above.
As a final kick in the teeth, when I called up to pay the final bill I was told there was a 45 minute wait to be put through to a human being! I tried later in the day and it was 30 minutes and then 15, which is still terrible.
It’s a massive relief to be rid of them and I strongly discourage anyone from using Plusnet!
today i contacted plus net on behalf of my disabled neighbour to cancel her account as she is moving into a warden controlled flat and no longer needs her broadband, i was told she would have topay a cancellation fee of £30 and any outstanding bills, i questioned this as she has been a customer for over 7 years i understand any outstanding bills but to charge her an exit fee is outragous. are they in the right to do this any hlp would be appreciated many thanks
I am leaving this comment here but would like it to be moved to a more prominent place so everyone can read it.
I SUCESSFULLY SUED PLUSNET/BT IN MY LOCAL COUNTY COURT !
In February 2014 I contacted PLUSNET to install a phone line & supply a modem & broadband at the new house I was moving to, I paid them £72.98, I received confirmation of my order (a contract ?)in the post the following day & 2 appointments were booked for a month later for the work to be done. I moved to my new house & waited, I took 11 hours off work unpaid to be at home for the BT Openreach engineers, but no one turned up, I tried to contact PLUSNET on my mobile several times only to be told I was in a queue & had to wait over 40 minutes, I also tried to contact them by using the local call box - again I was in a queue & would have to wait over 50 minutes. I wrote to PLUSNET to complain & demanded my £72.98 back plus my lost salary circa £400 including compensation for breach of contract & explicitly gave them 14 days to comply or I would take them to the small claims court, their response was to offer me a miserly £25 for my inconvenience & my money back if I formally asked for it, "HOW OUTRAGOUS!" So of course I made a claim through MYCOL the online small claims service, I offered mediation & waited for their response, NOTHING for approximately 12 months ! so a hearing date was set & surprise surprise I start to get phone calls & an offer in writing of £150 to settle this time from BT LEGAL. I now know that PLUSNET in their incompetence failed to book the 2 appointments with their parent company BT OPENREACH thus wasting my time & causing my financial loss. The case was heard on 03/07/2015, PLUSNET/BT didn't even bother to attend simply sending a letter, I had a very thorough, & severe but legally professional examination of my claim & my evidence by the justice (I'm not going to mention his name) my award was just shy of £300 & they have until the 25th of July to pay. I shall keep you informed. I would urge anyone who has issues with utility companies be it water/gas/electricity or telecoms to do as I did & use the small claims court – that is what it is there for ! At the time of writing this BT have 5 CCJ’s against them dating back to 2011 (& now 6 with mine) this company & its subsidiaries simply don’t care if they break civil law – it’s time we ALL complain & use the courts to get justice.
In October 2014, I suddenly found one morning that there was no connection. Neither telephone or broadband. I was forced to walk into town to find what was going on. it turned out that they had deliberatly, and out of the blue stopped my service. No warning. I tried to find out over the pay-phone why. They said it was my fault, that I had instructed them to do this. I wanted to see where I had written this. They then pulled the DPA-FOI Act delaying tactic, of you have to pay us 10 pounds for the information and also wait for 60 days. Despite apparently according to them it was something I had written, therefore my information. "But, but, but, if you dont pass the DPA we wont know who we are talking with - MR Jones!!!!!" Idiots.
started off fine but after about 6 months the speed started to slow down in fact I tend to remember the dialup was faster, at this moment in time I am having to teather to my mobile to be able to view my e-mails suffice to say I am changing providers in a few days
Very slow speeds with plusnet, was getting 3 times the speed with sky. Service is terrible, they are interested in fixing anything or even being apologetic about not providing he speed stated when i joined.
I am not talking about charges for repairs etc, I am referring to the fact you adverts cheaper prices but do not offer them to rural customers, who incidentally pay more for a worse broadband speed. I believe there is nothing in Offcom rules that says you have to charge more, but you just choice to do so to make more money and then hide behind Offcom. If you don't, then be fair and offer your best prices for ALL customers. In fact for rural customers with their very slow speeds, perhaps you should charge less - some hope
@ Ant + RRees
Seems you have crossed wires. Might not be mentioned on the Broadband Genie web site, but if you check elsewhere, you will find that Ofcom forces Openreach (BT section providing lines and broadband to other firms) to charge less in areas with competition from TalkTalk, Sky, etc. (Used to also include Freeserve/Wanadoo now EE, and Tiscali, now part of TalkTalk).
So the charges from Openreach are higher in rural areas with no competition from Sky or TalkTalk and lower in urban areas.
Unlike the majority of ISPs which set their prices nationally, Plus.Net passes on the cost reduction for those in urban areas.
That's why the price differs, rather than any secret deals.
As for the callout charges... every ISP I have used in the past 20 years makes it a priority (in case a family has someone messing with the wiring, I assume) to point out that if there's a fault between the Master Socket and the exchange then it is covered, but if it's your own wiring, you get billed.
I think they perhaps stress it a bit too much, but they want to be sure that the customer doesn't get a bill (sent to the ISP by Openreach, and then passed on to the ISP's customer) for about 125 pounds.
So they go through long and boring checklists to be as sure as they can that the customer has not got a problem caused by plugging something into the Master Socket, and get users to plug the router into it direct, etc, etc.
For a while, when I lived in N Wales, I was getting 160 kbps... and nothing at all if it rained (not even dial tone or voice calls) for 5-6 days.
After about 8 months of this, it was fixed by young guy from Merseyside who spotted the insulation was perished on the downlead between the gutter level point and the hall. He was up his ladder and stripping the cable before I had reached the front door. When it was fixed speed went up to 2.5 Mbps (until they upgraded the exchange to ASDL 2+ and it went down to 1.5 Mbps - mostly because my house was over 6 km from the exchange).
Each time I complained they had to remind me that if the problem was on my side, I'd get charged the callout fee. As it was outside, no fee.
@Chris - yes, there have been some delays getting through to CS. I saw recently that they are adding another 200 staff to their Leeds call centre (250 at present, plus 850 at Sheffield). Sadly with higher numbers of customers, low price deals, and TV ads to make them well known, it does have an effect... but agree that their CS staff (mostly) do a good job.
@Jacqui Farasowskyie - mid April
Unfortunately so much of what you have experienced is outside the control of Plus.Net.
Like nearly every other ISP (excluding Virgin Media and Kingston Communications in Hull area), the vast majority of the engineering work to get you connected and sort out problems is done by Openreach staff (the engineering arm of BT, selling line rentals and broadband access to all telecom services and ISPs).
Openreach have even been investigated in the past year or so (sadly, no 'news' about this on the Broadband Genie website) by Ofcom, because of growing disquiet from their customers, the big (and small) ISPs and phone service firms.
Unfortunately, if an engineer is late, or does the wrong thing, or never turns up at all, the ISP gets the blame, whereas it's the fault of Openreach.
You and I cannot complain to Openreach as we are not their 'customer' - the ISP is.
Do, please, search for Openreach and Ofcom and you should find that to reduce delays, Openreach has increased the number of engineers by 1000 (there used to be 240,000 engineers before BT became privatised, and it cut back numbers to around 80,000 - in fact so much so that there are companies sub-contracting for Openreach to install the fibre optic service... and generating some of the problems for customers as they will use shortcuts like taking a working line from some other customer!)
In March, partly because of poor quality lines (made of aluminium) and perhaps because of these sub-contractors, I lost phone service 3 times. Two times for several days on my line rented from the Post Office (which uses TalkTalk and brands service as Post Office broadband), and a day after the service came back on that line, my first line (rented from Primus, with Plus.Net broadband) lost dialtone and broadband. It was on the Tuesday before Easter and not sorted out until the Tuesday after.
Knowing that all the cables are underground on the local streets, it was a bit annoying that the new engineer who arrived at 13:30 and spent 90 minutes checking connections back to the cabinet and exchange, was not allowed to work on the underground equipment (down the street manhole) because he was so new. 3 hours later some other chap with 20 years on the job sorted out the problem (he was allowed to open the manholes!)
All down to Openreach - the delays, the problems, and not Plus.Net or Primus or the Post Office, but they would generally "get the blame" for the delays.
Most annoying part is that Openreach pays out about 7.50 a day after 3 days. TalkTalk will get that money and the Post Office will just refund me about 30p for each day it was not working, ie the cost of the rental (but not the extra 7 quid a day that Openreach pays as compensation for the customer).
Peter on Merseyside
@ Miss Richie - mid March 2015
So, out of interest, since you wrote 'every month' you were overcharged, was that just in the last year, or the full 60 months?
I know sometimes their charging system seems inflexible, and certainly I don't like one policy where they won't make the effort to tell existing customers of new products that are cheaper (for example, there may still be customers on their lower cost 'Essentials' package which has a limit of 40GB of data (and unlimited 00:00 to 08:00) - which was more generous than many other ISPs with limits - but they introduced truly "unlimited" data allowances in December 2012 (from memory) so no-one really needs to be paying an extra fiver if they "go over" their limit.
In 13 years I don't ever remember being overcharged, and I've never been tied into a new contract by phone (I just tell them I will stick with what I am on, and keep my eyes on their website, and other "news" websites like ThinkBroadband.com and ISPreview.co.uk to see what is happening.
Totally agree with you, Ant. Plusnet do not care a fig for rural users, and even have the audacity to charge them more than other users. But that was the hatched up agreement their parent company, BT, secretly agreed.
Our internet has been 0.1mb for nearly 2 months (0.9mb before hand), engineers come out and basically say Plusnet don't give a **** about rural users. The internet has been bad for a year+ but once we couldn't load a webpage we had to chase Plusnet constant and we are trying to get it resolved still.
This doesn't stop Plusnet charging us in full for 0.1mb speed which is around £40 a month but they soon say they will charge for callout if anything to do with us.
Plusnet made out it our router for so long that we can play Jenga with the amount of routers we have bought.
"Plusnet, we'll do you proud" what a crock of...
I was unhappy with the service at my previous ISP and transferred to the PlusNet ADSL broadband (+ line rental). As the deal I got was practically like getting broadband for free, I was worried that I might end up locked in a contract with poor service.
Well, I need not have worried. The transfer to PlusNet was smooth. My main computer is Linux-based so I had to manually set up my router which was pretty straight-forward. The speeds I get on PlusNet are much better than my previous provider, even when using multiple devices (tablet, mobile phone, laptop, PC) to access the internet.
The only downside I've noticed with PlusNet is that I've had to wait for a while to get through to their customer services team - at least the phone call is free ;-). However, once I get through, they have been great.
All this and I got the broadband free for 12 months and then £9.99 afterwards. I am a happy customer and would recommend PlusNet.
PlusNet is one of the worst providers I have ever come across in my life. I swapped from TalkTalk a big mistake. They mis sell their products. They don't tell you that you get your phone activated first then your broadband weeks later. You have to wait 15 minutes to actually get to speak to someone, atrocious. I wanted to cancel my phone service and was told I would have to pay £140. I am very aware of contract law and told them I would not be paying anything as they are in breach of their side of the contract. Two appointments arranged for engineer to come, on both occasions no engineer turned up. Do not go with PlusNet. How they have received awards is beyond me but perhaps customers paying a subscription fee to 'Which' magazine has something to do with it.
I was with Plusnet for five years.
To be fair, all of the issues I have had with them occurred in the last year.
I renewed my contract with Plusnet after completing my previous one, it was a big mistake.
At the point of purchase I was continually miss-sold products and services. When I entered my contract, and didn't receive the services for which I was paying I made a complaint. In a nutshell it was never resolved. Every single month I was overcharged, and every single month Plusnet did not provide the services they sold to me over the phone. They finally advised that they could/would not be able to provide the services quoted at the point of purchase at the price stated. But said that I 'could go elsewhere'!!.. Nice, considering they had breached their contract, and had it been the other way around I would have had to pay a hefty cancellation charge!
The complaint was escalated higher and higher, I wrote to the CEO and Director of Customer Services, where my complaint was dealt with by 'Customer Excellence Advisors'--who were less than excellent. The level of competence expressed at senior management level was lacking to say the least. They did not follow their own complaints procedure, continually closed down my tickets (open complaints), continued to overcharge me for services (such as landline calls--which are supposed to be FREE!!), refused to return my calls and continued to fail to provide my services.
In the end the last straw was when I was left without broadband for 4 days. Not only did Plusnet do nothing about it, they categorically refused as they said it would cost them too much money to send out an engineer to fix it if I was going to move service providers. I spoke to their technical support department, (which they harp on about being based in the UK) where I was verbally abused!! In the end I was forced to move provider.
I was offered an appalling sum of compensation, which was an insult considering what I went through and the fact I had been their customer for so many years. I really felt under appreciated for all my years of loyal custom.
I have never in my life experienced such appalling customer service! I am extremely disappointed and would urge all parties to stay very far away from them!